Showing posts with label Simpo/Longchen. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Simpo/Longchen. Show all posts

Someone said all pervading presence implies nondual is realised. I explained it is not the same with teh following quotations:

All pervading presence doesnt mean nondual is realised.

“Just my opinion...

For my case, the first time i experienced a definitive I AM presence, there was zero thought. just a borderless, all pervading presence. In fact, there was no thinking or looking out for whether this is I AM or not. There was no conceptual activity. It was interpreted as 'I AM' only after that experience.

To me, I AM experience is actually a glimpse of the way reality is.. but it is quickly re-interpreted. The attribute of 'borderlessness' is experienced. but other 'attributes such as 'no subject-object', 'transparent luminosity, emptiness are not understood yet.

My take, is that when 'I AM' is experienced, you will be doubtless that it is the experience.”

- Sim Pern Chong, 2022

Thusness wrote to Sim back in 2005 while Sim was still at his I AM phased (sim realised anatta and emptiness in the following years):

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/early-forum-posts-by-thusness_17.html

Excerpts:

stream.

Thusness:

Hi LongChen,

It is not that it is pointless to experience all as pure presence.

Your experience of "All there is are actually the all-pervading Presence" is most valuable and sacred.

Nothing is more real and clear than IT -- The reality of All.

There is no doubt about it. Smile

I am sure you have experienced 'Pure Presence' but I am equally sure that it escapes you in daily life experiences.

Why is this so?

Because during the process of analysis we have unknowingly divided 'Pure Presence' from sensation, thoughts, images, taste and forms..etc

and worst still we have made this a blueprint for us to 'see' and 'experience' the phenomenon existence.

This unintentional re-enforcement of our karmic forces will prevent us from experiencing our nature in full

and 'Pure Consciousness' will become a transparent like-substance hiding somewhere waiting forever to be found.

This Pure Consciousness as a 'transparent-formless-light' is an image created by thought, it is not the true face of Pure Consciousness.

Do explore into the concept of Emptiness and Conditional Arising of Buddhism in detail if you have time. Smile

Thusness

Longchen:

Dear Thusness,

Thank you for your advice... it is most valid and helpful and I can see that 'habit' that you have described.

I do have experiences of presence in the daily waking life... but there are also habitual patterns as well. It will take time and fearlessness to fully stabilise. You know what i mean.

Also, I have psychically 'read' you and Xabir (i.e. AEN/Soh) and are intuitively factored.

Thanks for the help. Smile

Thusness:

Eternal Now,

When the pure, formless, clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous enters

the sphere of thoughts, the mind transforms the Presence into an 'ENTITY' that is pure, formless,

clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous.

This entity, this something is the 'Self' added by a divided mind.

Without creating this 'center', this base, this something, a divided mind does not know how to function. Because the thinking mind understands through measurement and comparison.

In Buddhism, this 'Self' is extra and created. In reality it does not exist.

This is the wisdom to be awaken in order to see reality in its nakedness.

When this is clear, the stream always IS.

Longchen:

Hi Sangha,

What happens when presence is eliminated. No thought, no presence... then could this be a blank?

I do have a time when i meditated into a blank. No perception. it was when the mind 'moves' again that i realise that i was in the blank.

Thanks you.

Thusness:

Hi LongChen,

The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty of consciousness is temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial. Smile

The 'Self' that is created over countless lives of attachment cannot be underestimated.

We are in almost helpless bondage that our perceptions are shaped and held in a sort

of hypnosis that we feel, think, experience and deduced our understandings from the

perspective of an 'I'. Thus analytical understanding derived from the glimpse of

the Pure Presence Reality will very quickly get distorted.

When Presence is experienced with the six sense doors shut,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AMness".

When Presence is experience with six sense doors widely open,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AM All".

However neither experience tells us the TRUE NATURE of Pure Presence.

Even the very sense of Realness, of Existence, of Life and Vividness is so strong,

due to the sense of 'I' there will be a sense of location somewhere,

and the true face of Pure Presence remains hidden.

The mind is just not used to knowing the absolutely nothing, non-local,

nowhere to be found yet pure, brilliance bright and ever luminous.

It will locate, it will find, it will grasp.

There must come a time for the mind to let go of itself completely.

If we are bold enough to let go and enter into the world that is wordless,

labelless and thoughtless, and if this is sustained, wisdom and insight will arise.

This wisdom is the extraordinary Clarity, Vividness and Realness, wholeness whole.

It is crystal clear filling all spaces and places.

Both in silence and in noise, in blankness and somethingness.

Those that experience the Pure Presence will appreciate this crystal clear reality.

This re-visiting of Pure Presence will be thorough and entire.

There will be no doubt.

Buddhism Emptiness is deep and profound. Do go into it. Smile

Happy Journey

Longchen:

Hi Thusness,

Your message feels of truth. Thanks for it. I will do as you advice. Very Happy

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/157333?page=2

Thusness:

Hi longchen,

It is ungraspable not because the Ultimate Object cannot be the subject of observation; but rather there is really no such ‘ultimate object’ hiding behind anywhere. A ‘someone’ inside somewhere is from the very beginning a mistake. True authenticity comes when we realized that any form of ‘centricity’ is illusionary.

To experience the Pure Presence of Isness, “I AMness” must completely dissolve. The Pure Presence you experienced is non-local and has no-center. It becomes an ‘I AM’ due to linear mode of analysis. If you have time do explore into insight meditation and the essence of ‘Emptiness’ Wink

Regards,

Thusness

…..

another quote from sim pern chong from 2008:

I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.

To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.

However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required.

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html

 

 This conversation took place in 2007.

Longchen's three new articles (sgforums.com)


Longchen's three new articles

  • An Eternal Now
    All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.

    He was just discussing about maintaining non-duality while engaging in conversation when I met him for lunch days ago in school, and which he later wrote this (followed by two other articles "Are we supposed to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?" and "The misconception surrounding Transcendental Nonduality"):

    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-conversation.html

    Non-dual Conversation

    Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.

    There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.

    I will state what happens when non-dual conversation is taking place. The following features are present when having a non-dual conversation:

    1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.

    2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.

    3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.

    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

    ------------------------

    http://www.dreamdatum.com/thought-detach.html

    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?

    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.

    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?" The answer to the latter question is a NO.

    As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.

    So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.

    While thoughts cannot be stopped, the attachment or aversion to them can be diminished with training. Both attachments and aversions are types of grasping.

    So to be precise, during spiritual practice, we are not supposed to try to stop unwholesome thoughts from arising. This will prove to be ineffective and all we get will be more frustrations. What we can do, is to let go of the grasping to the thoughts. There is an energetic difference between the two.

    About this letting go, it is really a gentle process and cannot be forced. Excessive forcing re-enforces the arising of 'sense of self' and ineffective grasping kicks into action again.

    Often, the thoughts that arised are in conditioned response to what is being perceived by the senses. The speed of the arisal of the thought often is very fast. Because there is a perception, which is followed rapidly by the conditioned thought, the conditioned reaction(grasping) to the thought often is almost immediate. The rapid change that occur within this short span of duration is what makes 'recognising' the grasping from the perception and thoughts difficult.

    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

    These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles.

    ----------------------------
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html

    (just updated)

    The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality

    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.

    More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.

    The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.

    Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.

    No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.

    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

  • longchen
    The articles are still in draft stage. So, i will be making further changes. Smile
  • An Eternal Now
    Originally posted by longchen:
    The articles are still in draft stage. So, i will be making further changes. Smile
    I see... Smile
  • oOprinceOo
    wow nice. Smile
  • Thusness
    Originally posted by longchen:
    The articles are still in draft stage. So, i will be making further changes. Smile
    Good stuff. Rememer to update here. Smile
  • Thusness
    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.
    ...
    Non-dual Conversation

    Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.
    Yes all 3 articles are well written. You should not overlook the the title “non dual conversation” and also realize the importance of those marked in bold.

    There is a difference between non-duality as experienced during sitting meditation and non-duality as a form of insight when sufficiently stabilized. As a form of insight (stabilized) the illusionary division of a subject-object dichotomy is thoroughly seen through and meditative state is carried beyond ‘sitting meditation’. The experience of pure presence is integrated naturally into walking, tasting, hearing and seeing in all arising phenomena without much effort (still not completely effortless).

    In due time, the experience and understanding can get so clear that the entire ‘conceptual layering’ disappears. Even if concepts were to arise, they cease to serve as conditioning threads to the experience of pure presence.

    However during ‘conversation’ and/or in engagement of certain activities where dualistic conditions are strong, even when non-dual experience is stabilized till the above case, a non-dualist will still find it "quite a challenge".
  • Thusness
    Hi Longchen,

    Thanks for the article and just to share with u some of my experiences:


    1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.
    Always so. Never was any experience not of non-dual. If meant only as an expression that non-dual state is always present, it is alright but if there is an intention to re-confirm subconsciously a non-dual state, then in my opinion, that 're-confirming' must be let go ultimately. The letting go will deepen the luminosity instead. That is my experience. Smile


    2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.

    3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.
    I think this is a very important realization and the whole essence of having non-dual experience during conversation or engaging in activities and situations where conditions to create dualistic views are strong lies here -- in overcoming the bond of ‘mine’.

    I will relate it to the seeds of the 6th and 7th consciousness in Buddhism. In Buddhism, on top of the usual 5 senses, a 6th sense is added, that is, the conceptual mind. It is the habitual tendency of layering and naming that confuses a practitioner creating the subject-object split in terms of perception. Here the ‘condition’ for the arising of the split is mainly due to this ‘seed’ that resides in the 6th consciousness, that is, the conceptual overlay creating a ‘perceptual I’ (I referred to as the ‘bond’ of ‘I’) and overcoming this ‘bond’ of ‘I’ does not mean the overcoming of the bond of ‘mine’. The bond of ‘mine’ is a more subtle bond. A practitioner may continue to experience a strong ontological sense of ‘ITness’ and leave traces of the sense of self in holding to “Everything is Self’. At this stage, the sense of ‘ego’ can still remain strong.


    At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent
    ....
    At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings.

    Taking the above quote as an example, the symbolic meaning of a ‘body’ is created by the 6th consciousness (the bond of ‘I’) which is deconstructed during the first phase of non-dual insight but ‘owning the body’ belongs to the 7th consciousness (what I called the bond of ‘mine’) and is still strong. It often requires daily engagement in activities to allow the conditions to mirror the latent deep ‘ownership’. Here the ‘dual’ is between ‘ego’ and action/hostile environment. The separation is overcome by dissolving the ‘bond of mine’ where the 'agent' is being transcended into non-dual action. As for the grasping of 'sound into meanings', it relates more to the conceptual mind (6th consciousness).


    There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.
    The best solution to overcome this bond of 'mine' is insight into our emptiness nature. It is the “discovery of the something” that enables us to “enter into the state without volition” in the most natural and self liberated way.

    As an intermediate practice, one can sense any form of contraction that is manifested in the 5 aggregates. Sense all contractions that prevent totality and dropped them instantly but gently. There is no need to reason or find out why. Contractions are deeply embedded at the cell level due to a tightly held pre-conscious 'self'-preservation' seed. Release them. Any contraction that resulted in separation is a form of ‘self-preservation '.

    When stepping out, feel the full sensation of stepping out. The totality of sensation without contraction.Â…

    When breathing, feel the totality of the entire breathing without contractionÂ…

    When engaging in thoughts or speeches that give rise to bodily contraction, Let go completely but gently as if the contraction is dying in its own accord without asking why. Do not feel bad when contraction arises, forget about the past and future, whatever mistakes done and whatever things that are left undone, just let go of these arising thoughts that resulted in contraction without justification and reason. Pure sensation of presence takes over all logical reasoning.

    Practice till there is a natural momentum that in any circumstances or situations, whenever and whereever the sense of contraction arises, it is dropped immediately and gently. When there is no contraction, there is no worry of separation. The momentum with the practice of dropping whenever contraction arises will dissolve the ‘bond of mine’. When this bond is sufficiently dissolved, even “everything is Self’ is deconstructed. Here 'Self' is transended into mere action or activity and one realises that the entire idea of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ is learnt, there is truly nothing to hold. Insight of emptiness may arise; there is no I, there is no mine, all is the mere play of dharma, arises when condition is, self-liberates in their own accord.

    This is also my practice before insight into the emptiness nature of phenomena. My 2 cents. Smile

  • longchen
    Hi Thusness,

    Thanks so much for the very detailed explanation. Appreciate it.

    regards Smile
  • Thusness
    Originally posted by longchen:
    Hi Thusness,

    Thanks so much for the very detailed explanation. Appreciate it.

    regards Smile
    I like the article on "Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? " too. Insightful. Smile
  • Thusness

    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?

    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.

    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?"; The answer to the latter question is a NO.

    As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.
    Hi Longchen,

    This is a wonderful article and it is also a bold assertion. I fully agree with what you said. The idea that there is a controller is an illusion. It is the result of deep conditioning that blinds us from seeing what exactly is ‘happening’ experientially.

    This truth must be experimented and challenged for insight to arise. Try with all our might; control and will the next moment of thought to arise as desired. Try to penetrate with all our power and will to know what the next moment of thought will be. Experiment until this truth is clearly understood as an experiential fact.


    So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.
    I will re-phrase it to “if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, then what is its nature? How does it arise? Why does it arise?”

    There is no better way to phrase it then to borrow from the teachings of Buddha :-

    When there is this, that is.
    With the arising of this, that arises.
    When this is not, neither is that.
    With the cessation of this, that ceases.

    -- the principle of conditionality

    Understanding emptiness nature has profound implication to our practice. It reveals to us that our existing mode of practice as what you experienced and correctly put it, is not the right approach. We stop willing and controlling. Instead all moments are allowed to express themselves in their natural state, arising when condition is and subsides when condition ceases. Life is a whole oneness and pure presence is found in all moments and all states. There is no purer state. Practice is not about controlling or willing anything. It is allowing the pure presence to reveal itself in its manifolds. Emptiness and non-dual experience provide the insight that practice is neither aftering the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to clearly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background container nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme approaches lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.

    We then extend this understanding to events, situations, relationships and practices to prove the profundity of this wisdom. Using this insight to dissolve the 'I', 'mine', 'karmic propensities' and all knots of solidity and effort. When this is correctly understood with the insight of non-dual, it reveals the truth of self-liberation.

    Happy Journey!

  • longchen
    Hi Thusness,

    Thanks again.

    regards Smile
  • An Eternal Now
    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html

    [b]The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality


    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.

    More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.

    The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.

    Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.

    No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.

    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.[/b]
    Agreed. We can say that the Nonduality of Subject and Object is related to other forms of nonduality, yet other forms of nonduality may not necessary bring out the essence of the Nonduality of Subject and Object, which is the fundamental kind of insights known as "enlightenment".

    David Loy wrote in 'Nonduality' (highly recommended book on nondual concept), first chapter, which is called 'How many nondualities are there?'

    In it, it distinguished 5 kinds of nonduality.

    No concept is more important in Asian philosophical and religious thought than nonduality (Sanskrit advaya and advaita, Tibetan gNismed, Chinese pu-erh, Japanese fu-ni), and none is more ambiguous. The term has been used in many different although related ways, and to my knowledge the distinction between these meanings have never been fully clarified. These meanings are distinct, although they often overlap in particular instances....

    ...The following types of nonduality are discussed here: the negation of dualistic thinking, the nonplurality of the world, and the nondifference of subject and object. In subsequent chapters, our attention focuses primarily on the last of these three, although there will also be occasion to consider two other nondualities which are also closely related: first, what has been called the identity of phenomena and Absolute, or the Mahayana equation of samsara and nirvana, which can also be expressed as "the nonduality of duality and nonduality"; second, the possibility of a mystical unity between God and man. No doubt other nondualities can be distinguished, but most of them can be subsumed under one or more of the above categories....


    A very short summary:

    Dualistic thinking here, means thinking in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, purity and impurity, being and non-being, black and white and so on.

    "Without relation to "good there is no "bad," in dependence on which we form the idea of "Good." Therefore "good" is unintelligible. There is no "good" unrelated to "bad"; yet we form our idea of "bad" in dependence on it. There is therefore no "bad." (Nagarjuna)

    The second nonduality, the nonplurality of the world, is that

    ...due to the superimpositions of dualistic thinking that we experience the world itself dualistically in our second sense: as a collection of discrete objects (one of them being me) causally interacting in space and time. The negation of dualistic thinking leads to the negation of this way of experiencing the world. This brings us to the second sense of nonduality: that the world itself is nonplural, because all things "in" the world are not really distinct from each other but together constitute some integral whole. The relation between these two senses of nonduality is shown by Huang Po at the very beginning of his Chun Chou record:

    All Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought about in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. It is that which you see before you -- begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.

    This asserts more than that everything is composed of some indefinable substance. The unity of everything "in" the world means that each thing is a manifestation of a "spiritual" whole because the One Mind incorporates all consciousness and all minds. This whole -- indivisible, birthless, and deathless -- has been designated by a variety of terms, as all as the One Mind, there are the Tao, Brahman, the Dharmakaya, and so on.
    The third nonduality, is the nonduality of subject and object.

    We have seen the connection between the first two dualities: it is because of our dualistic ways of thinking that we perceive the world pluralistically. The relationship between the corresponding nondualities is parallel: the world as a collection of discrete things (including me) in space and time is not something objectively given, which we merely observe passively; if our ways of thinking change, that world also changes for us. But there is still something lacking in this formulation. By itself it is incomplete, for it leaves unclarified the relation between the subject and the nondual world that the subject experiences. It was stated earlier that the nondual whole is "spiritual" because the One Mind includes my mind, but How consciousness could be incorporated has not been explained. The world is not really experienced as a whole if the subject that perceives it is still separate from it and its observation Of it. In this way the second sense of nonduality, conceived objectively, is unstable and naturally tends to evolve into a third sense. This third sense, like the other two, must be understood as a negation. The dualism denied is our usual distinction between subject and object, an experiencing self that is distinct from what is experienced, be it sense-object, physical action, or mental event. The corresponding nonduality is experience in which there is no such distinction between subject and object. However extraordinary and counterintuitive such nonduality may be, it is an essential element of many Asian systems (and some Western ones, of course). Since the primary purpose of this world is to analyze this third sense of nonduality, it is necessary to establish in detail the prevalence and significance of this concept....

    ------

    I came to realize clearly that mind is no other than mountains, rivers, and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. ~ Dogen
  • Thusness
    Originally posted by longchen:
    Hi Thusness,

    Thanks again.

    regards Smile
    Hi Longchen,

    Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.

  • longchen
    Originally posted by Thusness:


    Hi Longchen,

    Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like [b]mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. 
    We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.

    [/b]
    Hi Thusness,

    Thanks for this. Smile

While sharing the seven stages with people with I AM realization in reddit, I find that the teachings of mystic Neville Lancelot Goddard is popular in reddit. Neville teaches people to realize the I AM and use the power of Source/Awareness/Consciousness to manifest one's desires through visualization. 

His teachings reminded me of a conversation with John Tan back in 2006.

"for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :) for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer." "bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  second stage as stated in the tozan. :)" "Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation. It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality. the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality. Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality. Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings. The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)" - John Tan, 2006


Also see: Tozan Ryokai's Verses on the Five Ranks


Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

....


Session Start: Thursday, August 03, 2006



(11:35 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689

(11:35 PM) (E-mail Address Not Verified) has changed his/her status to Online

(11:36 PM) AEN: Dear Forum,


Xsurf posted: "See deep silence as flow,

See form as emptiness,

See actuality as tendencies,

See solidity as flux."


I like this, but I would say if I were writing this....


"See actuality as potential reality." It is the same, but is using modern terms, and little different twist of the concept involved.


There is a question in all of this that we must ask ourselves. And the question is: "What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?"


bob

(11:36 PM) John: bob is from where?

(11:36 PM) AEN: simpo

(11:36 PM) AEN: forum

(11:36 PM) John: i mean...he is from which country?

(11:36 PM) John: US?

(11:39 PM) AEN: not sure but not singapore most likely

(11:42 PM) John: bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  

second stage as stated in the tozan. :)

(11:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:44 PM) AEN: what u mean by dwelled too deeply into the symbolic layer

(11:45 PM) John: psychic deals with the symbolic layer is similar to the tantric practices.

(11:45 PM) AEN: erm can explain ? :P

(11:45 PM) John: why is jhanas not the same as insight meditation?

(11:46 PM) AEN: jhana is a form of absorption, insight meditation is seeing into reality

(11:46 PM) John: seeing reality is not what Buddha taught. :)

(11:47 PM) AEN: huh?

(11:47 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(11:48 PM) John: Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  

teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation.

(11:49 PM) John: It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality.

(11:49 PM) John: the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality.

(11:50 PM) John: Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality.

(11:51 PM) John: Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings.

(11:51 PM) AEN: icic

(11:51 PM) AEN: overcome conventional reality by psychic powers?

(11:52 PM) John: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)

(11:52 PM) AEN: oic isit

(11:52 PM) AEN: but hmm i tot bob is already to certain extent enlightened?

(11:53 PM) John: i have told u many times about the first stage and the different dimension of the first stage, he is not in the second stage yet.

(11:53 PM) AEN: icic

(11:54 PM) John: u know the different between tozan five degree of enlightenment and the general 3 stages i told u?

(11:54 PM) AEN: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power --> oh so tats wat tao te ching is saying at the end of the 1st verse

(11:54 PM) AEN: as in, its possibility

(11:54 PM) AEN: hmm yea

(11:55 PM) John: yes. :)

(11:55 PM) John: what are the diff?

(11:55 PM) AEN: which one

(11:55 PM) John: what i told u about the 3 stages and tozan 5 stages?

(11:55 PM) AEN: oh sorry

(11:55 PM) AEN: u mean wat are the difference between the two 'sets' of stages

(11:55 PM) John: yeah

(11:56 PM) AEN: u said the 5 stages is more like.. in terms of engaging in activities?

(11:57 PM) John: can u map the 3 stages i told u and tell me the diff?

(11:58 PM) AEN: 1st stage is I AM, 2nd stage is all is emptiness, 3rd stage is abiding presence, self so

(11:59 PM) John: how does tozan 5 degree map to the 3 stages?

(12:02 AM) AEN: 2nd stage in tozan is the "1.5-2.0" in the 3 stages of presence?

(12:04 AM) AEN: u there?

(12:04 AM) AEN: ll

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:04 AM) John: no..

(12:04 AM) John: they are exactly the same. :)

(12:04 AM) AEN: huh??

(12:04 AM) AEN: what are exactly the same?

(12:04 AM) John: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3

(12:04 AM) AEN: then what about 4 and 5

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:05 AM) John: lol...u must understand the first 3 stages first. :)

(12:05 AM) AEN: oic

(12:06 AM) John: the first is the "I AM" and is what that most mystic undergo

(12:06 AM) John: it is always sinking back to the source.

(12:06 AM) John: their understanding is not complete

(12:06 AM) AEN: icic

(12:07 AM) John: even they have experience that the source is everything in a meditative stage, they are unable to live in and fully authenticate it moment by moment.

(12:07 AM) AEN: oic

(12:07 AM) John: only one that has thoroughly understand no-self and emptiness is able to do it.

(12:08 AM) John: they see the phenomenon world as source

(12:09 AM) John: the ultimate level of the first stage is the ground of being and seeing everything comes out from it

(12:09 AM) John: even life and death are from it

(12:09 AM) AEN: oic

(12:09 AM) John: these practitioner will also sink back to the source

(12:10 AM) John: because they are unable to see the source whenever and wherever they are.  Though they may say that the source is not lost and is ever present, the actual experience  

isn't there.

(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:11 AM) John: for one that enters the second stage, realness is at the arising and ceasing, nirvana is samsara.

(12:12 AM) John: the realness is at the phenomenal world.

(12:12 AM) AEN: oic

(12:12 AM) John: there is no need to sink back to the source.  No I is needed.

(12:12 AM) John: This is true enlightenment. :)

(12:12 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:13 AM) John: this is the stage where zen master always tok about just the manifestation.

(12:13 AM) John: and there is no ending to the experience.

(12:13 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:14 AM) John: the third is the self arising.  This is the true self arising as it already undergo the second stage.

(12:14 AM) John: what did the tozan say...

(12:14 AM) AEN: III. The Coming from within the Real:


The Relative within the Absolute [sho-chu-rai]


In this rank, the Mahayana bodhisattva does not remain in the state of attainment that he has realized, but from the midst of the sea of effortlessness he lets his great uncaused compassion  

shine forth. Standing upon the Four Bodhisattva Vows, he lashes forward the Dharma-wheel of " seeking Bodhi above and saving sentient beings below." This is the so-called "coming-from within  

the going-to, the going-to within the coming-from." Moreover, he must know the moment of [the meeting of] the paired opposites, brightness and darkness. Therefore the rank of " The Arrival  

at Mutual Integration " has been set up.



(12:15 AM) John: The Coming from within the Real

(12:15 AM) AEN: icic

(12:16 AM) AEN: which means self arising

(12:16 AM) John: yes...the 'coming' is the self-arising

(12:16 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:16 AM) John: no more 'seeing'

(12:16 AM) AEN: oic

(12:17 AM) John: no more apparent within real and real within apparent

(12:17 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:18 AM) John: apparent within real is the ground being that everything pops in and out that i said.  Many taught that this ultimate experience of the first stage is all.

(12:18 AM) John: real within apparent is what no-self and emptiness taught.

(12:18 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:18 AM) John: the 'coming' out of the real is the effortless self arising

(12:19 AM) AEN: icic

(12:19 AM) AEN: then wat about The Arrival at Mutual Integration? lol

(12:20 AM) John: this is the true understanding of the self-arising. :)

(12:20 AM) AEN: 3rd stage not yet true understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: or refined understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: as in in 4th stage

(12:20 AM) John: only in opposites u see self-arising.

(12:21 AM) John: din u see what i wrote about the un-manifested as the manifestation

(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:21 AM) John: the stillness as the flow

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh ya

(12:21 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh i remember hui neng said something

(12:22 AM) AEN: like, always teach in the other opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: like if someone say this, u reply with the opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: something like that

(12:22 AM) John: that is to refine the knowledge...

(12:22 AM) AEN: icic

(12:22 AM) John: hui neng in the first and second stanza are all toking about the source.

(12:23 AM) AEN: which stanza?

(12:23 AM) John: first is the famous one, no dust alight one lah

(12:23 AM) AEN: oic

(12:23 AM) AEN: second?

(12:23 AM) John: the second one is when the 5th patriarch taught him then he said how wonderful.

(12:24 AM) AEN: huh which one :P

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source hasn't moved

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source is already complete

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:24 AM) AEN: hmm cant remember where

(12:24 AM) AEN: second one is 5th patriarch say one?

(12:24 AM) John: i also can't remember

(12:24 AM) AEN: or hui neng say one

(12:24 AM) AEN: icic

(12:24 AM) John: hui neng...

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic

(12:24 AM) John: 5th patriach where got tok like that lah

(12:25 AM) AEN: hahahaah

(12:26 AM) John: the tozan 3 stage onwards is stabilizing only and the importance of vow...

(12:26 AM) AEN: oic

(12:26 AM) John: even when one reaches the 2 and 3 stages, the karmic propensities are still functioning

(12:27 AM) John: why are vows important, one must know the causal causes. :)

(12:27 AM) AEN: what causal causes

(12:27 AM) John: dunno...only buddha knows...lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: har

(12:27 AM) AEN: lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: icic

(12:27 AM) John: still remember i ask u the 4 imponderables

(12:27 AM) AEN: yea

(12:28 AM) John: when one reaches the 3 rd stage, he is only dealing with this pre-conscious karmic propensities

(12:29 AM) John: a normal practitioner will go by self effort.

(12:29 AM) John: not by vows. :)

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic

(12:29 AM) John: vows are not just about compassions

(12:29 AM) AEN: hmm i read ven sheng yen say, only a 8th bhumi bodhisattva no longer need to rely on vows

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic then

(12:29 AM) AEN: cos 8th bhumi immovable

(12:30 AM) John: :)  Not everyone can comment about the vows. :)

(12:30 AM) AEN: oic

(12:31 AM) John: making a vow that is indefinite

(12:31 AM) John: u know the consequences?

(12:31 AM) AEN: what consequence

(12:31 AM) John: who knows the consequences besides the Blessed One. :)

(12:32 AM) AEN: but it will lead one towards buddhahood isnt it

(12:32 AM) John: it is only through faith.

(12:32 AM) AEN: huh

(12:32 AM) AEN: oic

(12:32 AM) AEN: without vows, one may become arhant but not reach buddhahood

(12:32 AM) AEN: i tink

(12:32 AM) John: this is the main diff. :)

(12:33 AM) John: the power of vow is a form of faith for the sage level that

(12:34 AM) John: arahat and pratyeka buddha don't know.

(12:34 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:34 AM) John: so one relies on the faith of the buddha's words.

(12:34 AM) AEN: icic

(12:35 AM) AEN: have u taken any vows then? haha

(12:35 AM) John: hahhaaha have not. :P

(12:35 AM) AEN: icic

(12:36 AM) John: u know the different of a 'pratyeka and arahat' and sentient being making a vow?

(12:36 AM) AEN: what is it?

(12:37 AM) AEN: dunno leh

(12:37 AM) John: lol...cannot tell u. :P

(12:37 AM) AEN: actually i heard teacher chen is also asked by master to 'hui xiao xiang da'.. meaning walk mahayana path

(12:37 AM) AEN: oic why

(12:37 AM) AEN: lol

(12:38 AM) John: hui xiao xiang da?

(12:38 AM) AEN: hold on

(12:39 AM) AEN: ????

(12:39 AM) John: ic. :)

(12:43 AM) John: if one person hasn't attained true understanding and started telling ppl "I AM" is the ultimate way towards liberation, is that good?

(12:43 AM) AEN: nope

(12:43 AM) John: why?

(12:43 AM) AEN: mislead ppl?

(12:45 AM) John: until one truly understand why is non-doing and when pre-conscious karmic propensities is fully understood, i don't want to make comments about vows. :)

(12:46 AM) John: only if it comes from the inner selfless arising of that person and that person must make his/her own decision.

(12:46 AM) John: this is very important.

(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:47 AM) John: because it is an infinite vow.

(12:47 AM) John: it is a forever commitment. :)

(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:48 AM) John: it has to come from that person himself.  I normally do not give ppl any advises regarding this. :)

(12:48 AM) AEN: oic

(12:49 AM) AEN: but eventually everyone will reach buddhahood isnt it

(12:49 AM) AEN: even arhants and pratyekabuddhas will reach buddhahood

(12:50 AM) John: after the 3rd stage until all karmic propensities subsides, there is no diff.  When one reaches the 2nd stage, he/she already know what is it all about. :)

(12:50 AM) AEN: u mean vows?

(12:50 AM) John: not vows.

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat is all about

(12:51 AM) John: about the meaning of liberation

(12:51 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat u mean by 'there is no diff'

(12:52 AM) John: there is no difference in terms of enlightenment regarding the source.

(12:52 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:52 AM) John: our Buddha's nature remains, nothing can be done at all.

(12:53 AM) John: it is on other matters....hehehe...

(12:53 AM) AEN: oh haha

(12:53 AM) AEN: eh brb

(12:54 AM) AEN: back

(12:54 AM) AEN: on other matters?

(12:56 AM) John: u better sleep...getting late. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: haha ok

(12:56 AM) John: anyway bob question is quite important for simpo. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: how come

(12:57 AM) John: it depends on which path he wants to walk. :)

(12:57 AM) AEN: why

(12:57 AM) AEN: wat path

(12:58 AM) John: some ppl doesn't want enlightenment and liberation leh

(12:58 AM) AEN: What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?

(12:58 AM) AEN: so wat wld be ur ans

(12:58 AM) AEN: haha

(12:59 AM) John: for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :)

(1:00 AM) John: for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer.

(1:00 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:01 AM) John: sheng and xian, u know what is the diff or not?

(1:01 AM) AEN: wats the diff

(1:02 AM) John: how is xian written in chinese character?

(1:02 AM) AEN: ?

(1:02 AM) John: nope

(1:02 AM) AEN: huh

(1:02 AM) AEN: which one

(1:02 AM) John: xian1

(1:02 AM) AEN: shen xian?

(1:02 AM) John: yeah

(1:03 AM) AEN: ?

(1:03 AM) John: yeah....what does that mean?

(1:03 AM) AEN: xian is immortal?

(1:03 AM) John: human in the mountain. :P

(1:03 AM) John: u think doing what...

(1:03 AM) John: practicing

(1:04 AM) AEN: oic

(1:05 AM) John: as for u, u practice according to ur ren chen and don't get misled.

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:05 AM) AEN: ok

(1:05 AM) John: bob question let simpo answer. :)

(1:05 AM) John: lol

(1:05 AM) AEN: hahaha

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:06 AM) AEN: anyway wat different path. one never lead to enlightenment ?

(1:06 AM) John: will lah...just longer...lol

(1:06 AM) AEN: haha.. how come

(1:06 AM) AEN: wat do u mean

(1:06 AM) AEN: so which path is faster?

(1:06 AM) AEN: lol

(1:07 AM) AEN: but bob seems to imply 'actuality' is more important right

(1:07 AM) John: because one is unable to 'see', a lifetime gets wasted. :)

(1:07 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:08 AM) John: bob uses another way to approach the source lah

(1:09 AM) John: ultimately one must go beyond the symbolic layer to come face to face and get authenticated every moment.

(1:09 AM) John: however at the intermediate stage, one might resort to symbols to understand the deeper levels of our consciousness.

(1:09 AM) AEN: icic

(1:09 AM) AEN: by symbols wat exactly u mean

(1:10 AM) John: dreams, science, philosophies, math, religion, psychic....etc

(1:10 AM) John: all these belongs to the symbolic layer

(1:10 AM) John: shamanism

(1:10 AM) AEN: all these can approach source meh?

(1:11 AM) John: psychic goes deeper into the deeper layer

(1:11 AM) John: of course

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:11 AM) John: but they will not reach it. :P

(1:11 AM) AEN: reach the source?

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:11 AM) AEN: bob and simpo practises dream interpretation, and stuff like that

(1:11 AM) AEN: is tat wat u're saying?

(1:11 AM) John: they will come to a point like a raft

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: not only that

(1:12 AM) John: reiki

(1:12 AM) AEN: reiki is just a healing practise rite

(1:12 AM) John: visualization...concentration...etc

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:12 AM) John: all is to touch the source.

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: u think reiki never understand anything about God can heal ah

(1:13 AM) AEN: haha dunnu leh

(1:13 AM) AEN: but seem like anyone can practise reiki?

(1:13 AM) AEN: maybe i wrong

(1:13 AM) John: yeah...it is the sensing of the energy...

(1:14 AM) John: when one understand the consciousness and just the level of no-self, he will know what is meant by qi and reiki

(1:14 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:14 AM) AEN: but i tot qi is accessible to non enlightened ppl? like by practising qigong and stuff like that

(1:15 AM) AEN: hmm even eckhart tolle talk about Qi and stuff

(1:15 AM) John: enlightenment is about understanding no-self and emptiness

(1:15 AM) AEN: he says it is something that connects the unmanifested and the manifested world

(1:15 AM) John: not about tapping energy from the source, told u liao.

(1:15 AM) AEN: oic

(1:17 AM) John: precisely...in no-self, there is just movement, that is the sensation of qi without awakening of prajna wisdom.

(1:17 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:18 AM) John: just like one suddenly enter into a thoughtless state, instead of coming to the awareness that it is the key towards understand our buddha's nature

(1:19 AM) John: one experience some other stuff in a thoughtless state and go the other way.

(1:19 AM) AEN: oic...

(1:19 AM) John: go sleep. :)

(1:19 AM) AEN: haha ok

(1:19 AM) AEN: gd nite

(1:19 AM) John: nite


Session Start: Sunday, August 06, 2006


(12:33 PM) John: anyway u know about the "AMness is God" that i write?

(12:33 PM) AEN: yea i saw

(12:33 PM) AEN: what about it

(12:33 PM) John: that is exactly the "apparent in the real"

(12:33 PM) AEN: icic

(12:33 PM) AEN: ya i remember

(12:33 PM) John: more elaborate description.  

(12:33 PM) AEN: oic

(12:34 PM) John: but casino say i missed something remember...i say unless he can tell me what is no-self and emptiness.  

(12:34 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:34 PM) AEN: yea

(12:34 PM) John: lol

(12:35 PM) John: but casino is still maybe 0.25...so don't know the profound teaching of no-self and emptiness...therefore talking about the one mind is dangerous.

(12:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:35 PM) AEN: why do u tink casino no longer post?

(12:35 PM) AEN: away or busy?

(12:35 PM) John: most ppl just see the mind as invisible agent.

(12:35 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:35 PM) John: lol...away so affect ur rating?

(12:35 PM) AEN: eh btw longchen today pm me, after i pm him some dzogchen links

(12:35 PM) John:  

(12:35 PM) AEN:


Thanks for the link.


For the time being, i think i will stay clear of esoteric practices. Stabilizing in presence is more important. Smile


Actually, realising that 'sense of self is not the doer' will lead one into a state of going with the flow. This going with the flow will lead one into the present moment. However, to be in it most of the time is not easy and takes much courage especially under stressful condition. Under stressful condition thinking mind takes over completely and see the matter at hand as being very important...grasping.


will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.


regards


simpo

(12:35 PM) AEN: no la just wondering

(12:35 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:36 PM) AEN: not too concerned about ratings la.. EH this month i tink will high rating but very troublesome, all the atheist attacking their forum

(12:36 PM) AEN: lol

(12:37 PM) John: lol

(12:37 PM) John: where did u get the simpo reply

(12:38 PM) AEN: by PM

(12:38 PM) John: ic...u wrote to him in pm?

(12:38 PM) John: regarding bob?

(12:38 PM) John: lol

(12:38 PM) AEN: no no

(12:38 PM) AEN: regarding namkhai norbu's internet transmission of dzogchen

(12:38 PM) AEN: i gave him some links

(12:39 PM) John: ic.  

(12:40 PM) John: why Dzogchen practice, what he experience is already Dzogchen.

(12:40 PM) John: There is nothing else.

(12:40 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:41 PM) John: yeah...but he knows

(12:41 PM) John: will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.

(12:41 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:41 PM) AEN: icic

(12:43 PM) John: the complete losing of the self is very important, the imageless when clear will lead to the next stage.  

(12:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:46 PM) AEN: actually they're wrong to say pratyekabuddha is only The Apparent within the Real rite?

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:46 PM) John: yes yes yes...very good.  

(12:46 PM) AEN: haha

(12:46 PM) John: this is what i want to say.  

(12:46 PM) John: under estimate the pratyeka buddha.  

(12:46 PM) John: lol

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:47 PM) AEN: so u going to comment in ur post?

(12:47 PM) John: nope...

(12:48 PM) John: if pratyeka buddha is at the first stage, they know not a single trace of nirvana.  

(12:49 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:49 PM) AEN: icic

(12:50 PM) AEN: i tink their definition of pratyekabuddha is probably 'mystics who never heard the buddha'

(12:50 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:51 PM) John: possible...but the term arhats and pratyekabuddha....i think the e-book, the forest monk that cry also know the importance of anatta (comments by Soh: more on One Mind and nondual, not yet anatta)

(12:51 PM) John: remember he has been pondering why his master said "apparent in the real" is a great danger?

(12:51 PM) AEN: hmm theravada the anatta is very important isnt it?

(12:51 PM) AEN: oic yea

(12:51 PM) AEN: i remember

(12:52 PM) John: all ppl that has true experience and undergone that stage knows its danger and therefore refuse to tok about 'self'

(12:52 PM) AEN: oic

(12:52 PM) John: so no-self and emptiness

(12:52 PM) AEN: icic

(12:52 PM) John: i do not want to tok about One Mind.

(12:52 PM) AEN: one mind = self?

(12:53 PM) John: no...but mistaken to be so.

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic

(12:53 PM) John: there is no attributes that is self like

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:53 PM) John: why do we call it self?

(12:53 PM) John: because of its luminosity?

(12:53 PM) John: what about the emptiness nature?

(12:53 PM) John: blind to the emptiness nature, we grasped and hold on to views

(12:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:56 PM) John: got to go.  

(12:57 PM) AEN: ok cya



Session Start: Monday, August 07, 2006

(5:33 PM) John: There is a chapter in the "A New Earth" where Eckhart Tolle mentioned about, touching a cup or anything, be without thoughts and not naming anything, then senses it...did u  
read about that?

(5:37 PM) John: i read in borders the other day.
(5:37 PM) AEN: o icic
(5:37 PM) AEN: y wat about tat
(5:38 PM) John: That to me is a really important chapter. :)
(5:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:38 PM) John: the description is pretty good...
(5:38 PM) AEN: icic
(5:41 PM) John: http://www.plotinus.com/ego_subjectivity.htm
(5:41 PM) AEN: eh how u got that plotinus link??
(5:41 PM) John: bob and dianah i think participated in this forum.
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh yes
(5:41 PM) John: i think.
(5:41 PM) AEN: simpo sent u?
(5:41 PM) John: nope
(5:41 PM) AEN: yes its link to this website
(5:41 PM) AEN: but i wonder where the forum is
(5:41 PM) John: it is about pure subjectivity and no-self
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh then how u found that website
(5:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:42 PM) John: vedanta and pure subjectivity is pretty close to buddhism.
(5:42 PM) John: read about it...but hehhe...just keep to urself....it is very close to what i told longchen
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:43 PM) John: however the explanation isn't clear due to the clarity of experience is still not thorough.
(5:43 PM) AEN: icic
(5:43 PM) AEN: who do u tink wrote this
(5:43 PM) John: a lady...like the mentor of dianah like that. :)
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic
(5:43 PM) AEN: dianah got mentor?
(5:44 PM) John: yeah....but this lady that is the owner of the website has a master that is a mystic and a philosopher...she intro about him.
(5:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:45 PM) John: read it, quite good. :)
(5:45 PM) AEN: ok
(5:45 PM) John: and tell me how to go deeper into explaining no-self.
(5:45 PM) John: anyway ur exams coming right?
(5:45 PM) AEN: in a month
(5:47 PM) John: it is quite good...but the key lies in the 'real within the apparent'.  Though the experience is there, still in hoover around the no-self and AMness.  Unable to break  
through.
(5:47 PM) John: it must be stabilize by touching the real within the apparent.
(5:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:48 PM) John: Consciousness must not be realised as a 'thought and mental' process
(5:48 PM) AEN: icic
(5:51 PM) John: It is as real as everything that is experienced.
(5:51 PM) John: nothing cannot be more real than it.
(5:51 PM) John: this realness must be experienced.
(5:52 PM) John: that is, must be in form and formless, visible and invisible aspects of everything.
(5:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:58 PM) John: when ppl tok about pure subjectivity, it is easy to assume that they are toking about the 'conceptual' layer.  This is the problem.
(5:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:59 PM) AEN: wat u mean talking about conceptual layer
(5:59 PM) John: means symbolic layer.
(5:59 PM) John: using thoughts and images
(6:00 PM) AEN: pure subjectivity as they describe is beyond conceptual/symbolic layer isnt it?
(6:01 PM) John: yes
(6:01 PM) John: Shen Hui a Zen Master says: “It is the absence of the absence of subject and object as phenomena that is the ultimate Truth that awakens.” And Ramesh Balsekar continues by 
adding: “there is only a subjective happening, never an action done by any entity.”
(6:01 PM) John: this is really good...
(6:01 PM) AEN: oic
(6:02 PM) John: longchen will now hoover at this level.  Hopefully he can pass this stage 3 yrs later.
(6:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:02 PM) AEN: next stage is wat
(6:03 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(6:03 PM) John: i wrote to him to focus on the realness of the phenomenal world
(6:03 PM) AEN: oic
(6:03 PM) John: emptiness is a raft...
(6:04 PM) John: it is to give and point us a direction to intuitively understand the most puzzling and ungraspable nature of consciousness
(6:05 PM) John: without going through this level of understanding, consciousness that is understood still remain in the form of "AMness".  A transcendental experience clouded with karmic  
'self' propensities.
(6:05 PM) John: there is no true understanding.
(6:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:05 PM) AEN: is longchen still at the 'amness' stage
(6:05 PM) John: actually there is nothing wrong with "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: a mystic can treat what Buddha taught as the ultimate experience of "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: it just transformed to Thusness.
(6:06 PM) John: hehehe
(6:06 PM) AEN: oic.. haha
(6:09 PM) John: if longchen can stabilize in 3 yrs time, he will be able to enter incredible bliss at will.
(6:09 PM) AEN: wat incredible bliss
(6:10 PM) John: beyond description
(6:10 PM) AEN: oic
(6:10 PM) John: not a form of mundane samadhi
(6:10 PM) AEN: icic
(6:10 PM) John: i have already wrote to him...told him not to be despaired. :)
(6:11 PM) AEN: despaired by what
(6:12 PM) John: because he will have to struggle with the conceptual layer for now and when he go deeper, he will not understand what is he going to experience
 (6:12 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
i feel sad again .
AEN says:
oic why
Leonard says:
because of life ...
AEN says:
what happen
Leonard says:
i wonder if it is my karma to be born so poor....and not rising .
AEN says:
it is by karma but nothing is fixed
Leonard says:
i tried to do more good deeds - but everything is still quite bad.
Leonard says:
i tried to take things easy but still am in a very sad state.
AEN says:
oic..
Leonard says:
how about u ?
AEN says:
but contentment is the greatest wealth.. u can learn from the monks..
Leonard says:
i feel i am in a non-compassion state ...
AEN says:
oic
Leonard says:
no compassion for me resides in this world...
(6:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:12 PM) AEN: actually wat u mean by struggle with conceptual layer
(6:13 PM) John: it is difficult to explain to u now...after ur exams.
(6:13 PM) AEN: haha ok
(6:14 PM) John: compassion is for the herds, understand u just simply exist.  That is enough for now.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:15 PM) John: tell him that. :)
(6:15 PM) AEN: ok
(6:15 PM) John: rest his mind first....this is his current stage.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:16 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
u know what ... i somehow think its all a lie ...isnt it ? Sleep is best isnt it ?
(6:16 PM) AEN: lol
(6:16 PM) John: lol...then sleep!
(6:16 PM) AEN: ok haha
(6:17 PM) John: don't laugh but know the danger of not having a qualified master, this can be the case.
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic.. as in become like him
(6:17 PM) AEN: ?
(6:17 PM) John: yeah
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic
(6:17 PM) AEN: then u leh? lol
(6:18 PM) AEN: as in got like that in the past?
(6:18 PM) John: lol...i have go beyond that. :)
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic
(6:18 PM) John: gone
(6:18 PM) John: last time not exactly....i have some guidance
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:19 PM) John: but as I progress, i know it is difficult. :)
(6:19 PM) John: initially it doesn't matter really, whether u r hinduism, buddhism or taoism.
(6:19 PM) John: but until a certain level, it is really important.
(6:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:19 PM) AEN: important to ?
(6:20 PM) John: to go into buddhism to understand its teaching
(6:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:26 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
life is terribly depressive when u are poor and weak .
(6:29 PM) John: socially conditioned....so we must be able enough to satisfy the physiological needs first.
(6:31 PM) AEN: ok
(6:37 PM) John: when is ur ambition?
(6:39 PM) AEN: u mean what
(6:40 PM) AEN: not exactly sure. probably IT line. hehe
(6:40 PM) John: hah?
(6:40 PM) John: lol
(6:40 PM) AEN: i mean
(6:40 PM) John: very tough...
(6:40 PM) AEN: u mean, what is ur ambition
(6:40 PM) John: yes
(6:40 PM) AEN: icic
(6:40 PM) AEN: how come v tough
(6:42 PM) John: by the time you come out, it will be tough. :)
(6:42 PM) John: for me it is ok..coz i am sort of quite ok now.
(6:42 PM) John: not so much into technology
(6:43 PM) John: does ur family know that u r so into buddhism?
(6:44 PM) AEN: dunno
(6:44 PM) AEN: lol
(6:44 PM) AEN: shld b
(6:44 PM) AEN: be
(6:44 PM) John: lol
(6:44 PM) John: how is ur result?
(6:44 PM) AEN: exams?
(6:45 PM) John: hmm....academic achievement
(6:45 PM) AEN: not so gd for mid year
(6:45 PM) John: lol...kok ur head....
(6:45 PM) AEN: lol
(6:46 PM) John: just go for the basic needs and do not deviate from dharma. :)
(6:46 PM) John: don't waste this life.
(6:46 PM) AEN: ok
(6:46 PM) AEN: basic needs?
(6:46 PM) AEN: as in?
(6:47 PM) John: means no need to go for multimillion dollars strife. :P
(6:47 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:47 PM) AEN: ok
(6:47 PM) John: go for few thousands per month can liao.
(6:47 PM) AEN: icic
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is not a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is now a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) AEN: yea
(6:49 PM) AEN: u know he used to be from ren cheng?
(6:49 PM) AEN: brb
(6:54 PM) AEN: back
(6:55 PM) AEN: earthling82 is now more to theravadin but i tink open to all traditions
(6:55 PM) AEN: have u read the thread where he commented about ren cheng
(6:55 PM) John: nope
(6:55 PM) AEN: actually he left ren cheng bcos of certain misunderstandings with the guy who wrote the essay i sent u
(6:55 PM) AEN: icic
(6:55 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) John: misunderstanding then leave?
(6:56 PM) AEN: and maybe some other issues not too sure
(6:56 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) AEN: but theres alot of misunderstanding between them
(6:57 PM) John: ic
(6:57 PM) John: not to be too involved in such activities.
(6:57 PM) AEN: but he's not from my side.. so i also dunno much.
(6:57 PM) AEN: kk
(6:57 PM) John: how much sites are there in ren cheng?
(6:58 PM) AEN: mainly 3, but i tink 5 centers... one is the nuns side, the other is li zhu lao shi side (my teacher), and the other is another english dharma teacher's side
(6:58 PM) AEN: (the latter 2 are lay teacherS)
(6:58 PM) John: ic...appointed by ur shi fu?
(6:58 PM) AEN: ya
(6:59 PM) John: when ur shi fu passed away?
(6:59 PM) AEN: 1996
(6:59 PM) John: oh...
(6:59 PM) John: in samsara, everything is going through a process of disintegration.
(7:00 PM) AEN: i heard he intended to die at 92, but bcos of so much problems he had to 'take on' certain karma from his disciples.. he died at 78. anyway 10th anniversary taking place a month later but i tink i cant attend.. exams
(7:00 PM) John: ic.
(7:01 PM) John: how do u know whether dharma is the correct path or not?
(7:01 PM) AEN: wat do u mean
(7:01 PM) AEN: oh
(7:01 PM) AEN: hmm..
(7:01 PM) AEN: i tink the only sure way is through own experience
(7:01 PM) AEN: ?
(7:01 PM) John: :)
(7:01 PM) John: lol
(7:02 PM) John: first take faith...then practice with authentication.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic
(7:03 PM) John: actually it is important to experience the "I AMness"
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:04 PM) John: i find that people having such experiences have more profound understanding of the teaching of Buddha if they are able to humble themselves down.
(7:04 PM) AEN: oic
(7:04 PM) John: Because these are the people that are in the best position to tell if they go beyond that stage...
(7:04 PM) John: it is a natural progression.
(7:04 PM) John: and Buddha I would say knows this problem and is one that has gone through similar process.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:10 PM) AEN: did u talk to truth?
(7:10 PM) John: nope...next month. :)
(7:10 PM) John: why?
(7:10 PM) AEN: orh just wondering.. u said u wld talk to him
(7:10 PM) John: after i settle some of my stuff.
(7:10 PM) John: :)
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) John: just want him to get back to dharma. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic.. u guess he not on path now? lol
(7:11 PM) John: he should be back now....but needs to be stronger. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic
(7:12 PM) John: it would be a waste.
(7:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:23 PM) John: wah...eckhart now become like a world teacher.
(7:23 PM) AEN: haha y?
(7:23 PM) AEN: yea true
(7:24 PM) AEN: his books are v popular... wonder how come
(7:24 PM) AEN: but also nice to read la
(7:25 PM) John: writing from personal experience and very inspirational. :)
(7:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:27 PM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(7:27 PM) John: cya


before that:



Session Start: Wednesday, August 02, 2006

(6:44 PM) John: a sincere monk is mostly better than a lay....progress faster. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:46 PM) John: the site u send me through email is good.
(6:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:46 PM) AEN: wat exactly is good?
(6:46 PM) John: very clear about the stage.
(6:47 PM) John: to me...much better than ven sheng yen description of stages.
(6:47 PM) AEN: oic... how come
(6:47 PM) AEN: sheng yen's description not yet complete?
(6:48 PM) John: that is my opinion only lah...u will have to find it out urself. 
(6:48 PM) John: but the tong san one is very very clear.
(6:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:49 PM) AEN: but anyway wat do u tink of the author of the site? wanderling
(6:49 PM) AEN: u read tong san works b4?
(6:49 PM) John: nope...i mean the one u send me...
(6:49 PM) AEN: oic
(6:50 PM) John: sorry...heheeh....tung shan...
(6:50 PM) AEN: orh kk
(6:51 PM) John: actually 2-5 is a matter of engaging into activity...
(6:52 PM) AEN: oic as in
(6:52 PM) John: whether one engage into activities and take the vow, the enlightenment remains the same.
(6:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:53 PM) AEN: so 1 is already 3rd level presence?
(6:53 PM) AEN: and 2-5 is refining in terms of experience?
(6:53 PM) AEN: or as in engaging into activity
(6:53 PM) John: activity...path is diff
(6:53 PM) AEN: oic
(6:53 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(6:53 PM) AEN: path is diff
(6:54 PM) John: like theravada and mahayana
(6:55 PM) AEN: oh, so u mean the 5 stages is more along mahayana path?
(6:55 PM) AEN: hmm ya true i tink it mentions bodhisattva bhumis
(6:58 PM) John: no one remains the same even for a moment.  After the 2 stage, one will not just remain the same like that even without taking the vow.... still engagement in activities just 
that path is diff.
(6:59 PM) AEN: 2 stage as in tozan's one?
(6:59 PM) John: yeah...
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic
(7:01 PM) John: actually the first stage is like "I AMness"
(7:01 PM) John: until the deepest aspect
(7:01 PM) AEN: yup
(7:01 PM) John: read all my msgs to longchen
(7:02 PM) John: i kept emphasizing the manifestation not the source
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.  
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. :P
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
(7:08 PM) AEN: in the forum?
(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(7:08 PM) John: yeah
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:12 PM) John: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain.
(7:12 PM) John: actually after the 2nd stage...already like that...
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:13 PM) John: therefore i might be looking the hairs of a tortoise
(7:13 PM) John: :P
(7:13 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(7:13 PM) John: this is the 4th stage...ahahah
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic
(7:13 PM) John: i m looking for someone that can write about this. :P
(7:14 PM) AEN: about what
(7:14 PM) AEN: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain. ?
(7:14 PM) John: actually can't be written lah
(7:14 PM) John: got to meet up.
(7:14 PM) AEN: ?
(7:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:13 PM) AEN: there??
(10:13 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(10:13 PM) AEN: bob replied
(10:13 PM) AEN: lol
(10:14 PM) John: :)
(10:15 PM) John: If longchen hasn't gone beyond this stage, then he really has to work hard.  But out of respect...hehehe he might not say anything.
(10:16 PM) AEN: what stage?
(10:16 PM) AEN: might not say anything on what
(10:16 PM) John: what bob has said...
(10:16 PM) AEN: oic
(10:17 PM) John: if he still linger in the thought realm, then quite jaliat liao.
(10:17 PM) AEN: but he isnt rite
(10:17 PM) John: no lah
(10:17 PM) AEN: icic
(10:17 PM) John: but now he will still fall back...coz not stabilize yet
(10:17 PM) AEN: but bob is still in the thought realm
(10:17 PM) AEN: oic
(10:19 PM) John: the website like not that eventful. :P
(10:21 PM) AEN: haha yea
(10:21 PM) AEN: one year ago longchen told me
(10:21 PM) AEN: he and some others actually participate in a secret forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: of enlightened ppl
(10:21 PM) AEN: i tink bob, him, dianah, and others all in that forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: maybe that forum more lively but i dunnu where is it
(10:21 PM) AEN: ol
(10:21 PM) AEN: lol
(10:21 PM) John: :)
(10:22 PM) John: longchen knows what he experience is a lil beyond what bob can tell him now...
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:23 PM) John: anyway he has to stabilize a lil...
(10:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:24 PM) John: stabilization is dependent on one's effort
(10:24 PM) John: and his yuan...
(10:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:25 PM) John: whatever i wrote to him is real for i know the consequences of misleading him at this juncture. :)
(10:26 PM) John: i hope he can treasure it. :)
(10:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) John: by the way, where is the concept when a baby is first born?
(10:35 PM) AEN: concept of ?
(10:35 PM) John: of ur head...when a body is first born, what got concept...:P
(10:35 PM) AEN: a baby is much purer bcos v little concepts, but is still ignorant
(10:35 PM) AEN: haha ya
(11:04 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(11:07 PM) John: :)  hehehe....i think out of courtesy. :P
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic
(11:09 PM) John: but i hope he knows the distinction of emptiness before perception and manifestation as a concept. :)
(11:10 PM) John: manifestation is not a form of concept but is the nature of consciousness (that is emptiness) that requires a mind that is before symbols and labels.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) John: however he needs to stabilize it because he kept falling back to it even after the glimpse. :)
(11:10 PM) John: he will need 3-4 yrs. :)
(11:10 PM) John: 2-3 years
(11:11 PM) John: coz the seed is already inside. :)
(11:11 PM) John: that is why i din write to him. :P
(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) AEN: din write to him ?
(11:11 PM) AEN: about?
(11:11 PM) John: this period is important for him to go on his own.
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic
(11:12 PM) John: u notice that i always write to him whenever he has doubt and queries?
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:12 PM) John: in forum as long as he has relevant doubt, i always find time to answer him....
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) John: but after the seed is planted....it will have to let it grow itself through his own effort because in such a juncture, it cannot be in the form of words anymore.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:14 PM) John: when someone ask zen masters what is buddha's nature....its the tile, rocks...
(11:15 PM) AEN: yea
(11:15 PM) John: feel the hardness, jumps...
(11:15 PM) John: it is exactly that
(11:15 PM) John: experience anything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) John: everything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: oic

(11:16 PM) John: i reading thich nhat hanh no death, no fear. 
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic u bought the book ?
(11:16 PM) AEN: which books u bought
(11:16 PM) John: quite good...though the expression not that accurate
(11:16 PM) AEN: on what
(11:19 PM) John: on his understanding
(11:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:20 PM) John: but it is not easy for longchen to go beyond the thought level...
(11:20 PM) John: i kept emphasizing this to him...
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:21 PM) John: when the 'self' is gone, there can be no thought.
(11:21 PM) John: in whatever tradition, we have to go beyond that.
(11:22 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) John: however i also know that bob will answer. :)
(11:23 PM) John: and his answer is so.
(11:23 PM) AEN: haha
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) AEN: lol
(11:23 PM) John: :)
(11:37 PM) John: By the way, there are potentialities and tendencies and by taking thoughts, we actualized it.  Actuality is always known, the source is ever unknown.
(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:39 PM) AEN: wat kind of tendencies
(11:40 PM) John: karma are tendencies, becoming is a form of tendencies, impermanence, emptiness
(11:40 PM) John: if u tell longchen, he will have a glimpse of it. :)
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:41 PM) John: but that will set him into thoughts again which is what i don't want.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:41 PM) AEN: but he will eventually know la
(11:41 PM) John: yeah. :)
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic
(11:42 PM) John: the seeds should now be strong enough
(11:42 PM) John: he must touch it wherever he is.
(11:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:49 PM) John: See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux. :)
(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:50 PM) John: reply to bob. :P
(11:50 PM) John: eheheheh
(11:50 PM) AEN: i reply?
(11:50 PM) AEN: o ok
(11:50 PM) John: but tell him thanks. :)
(11:50 PM) AEN: ok
(11:51 PM) AEN:
Thanks for your reply...

See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.
(11:52 PM) AEN: like tat
(11:52 PM) John: yes. :)
(11:52 PM) AEN: okie
(12:15 AM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(12:16 AM) John: cya
(12:16 AM) John: :)




Sim Pern ChongAdmin
Wah.. so long..haha. and quite long ago too 😁 The Plotinus website is by Alice, she is a mystic of the Rosicrucian Order. She is Egyptian, if i remembered correct.
I use to participate in their secure forum.. Dianah and Bob were in the forum as well. For a period of time, many years ago I practiced the method given by Dianah.. That was the 'most psychic oriented' period. Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm.
Together, with the Buddhist Stages of Enlightenment, they provided a larger perspective of the workings.
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong Can you elaborate on "Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm"
    You mean remembering past lives?
    Sim Pern ChongAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu It is actually not remembering.. it is being in the dimension 'prior' to additional layers/processes are generated to create the in-between/astral and the physical experience.
    Just an analogy.. it is like, there are rooms within room. When the physical experience/sense room is deconstructed, there is a 'slightly bigger' in-between/astral room which is mainly the grosser mind and emotion. For the pre-rebirth experience, the physical senses are fully suspended, following by the mental/emotional 'in-between/astral'. and then with the '2 rooms' temporarily deconstructed/suspended.. the bigger Pre-rebirth realm is experienced. This realm is simply the result of all the experiences of this 'being'. It is not awakened at the time of the experience.. but it also not just a collection data center too.. it is a causal 'dimension'.
    My opinion is that whatever insight there are, got to actually 'penetrate' and turn the 'understanding' in that dimension.. otherwise the old ways of processing will continue... aka rebirth 😆
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  • Yin LingAdmin
    So Long until when I click “continue reading” it cannot load? Lol
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Yin Ling strange.. i can read
  • Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
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    Yin LingAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu ok thanks!
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